I'd like to clarify and emphasize one point, however: as @JustinA stated above:
"To become compliant, Wave would have to open a physical location in the EU with full time employees, as well as build out brand new technology."
Wave is a Canadian business, with customers all over the world. To comply with the new UK and EU Open Banking regulations, we would have to create a UK subsidiary, with employees and directors in the UK (and potentially a second subsidiary in the EU, depending upon how Brexit concludes). This is not a step that is right for Wave at this time.
To be clear, Wave strongly supports the goal of opening up digital banking - we believe you should be entitled to use your banking data as you choose. We are not "withdrawing from the UK market" in response to Open Banking; we simply - at this time - are not ready to make the substantial additional commitment to enter the UK market with a local subsidiary that would be required to participate in UK/EU Open Banking.
Wave continues to serve customers worldwide. We value and appreciate all our customers in the UK and EU, and for this reason we are endeavouring to be as transparent as possible about our intentions in these markets.
If you haven't already, I'd encourage you to check out how to upload bank statements in Wave or with Wave Connect as a way to continue capturing your transactions data into Wave. Once you've done it a couple of times, it's really a very quick process!
Thanks for your explanation and I will have a go to see what's involved in the Statements upload, but its all extra time taken. My accountant is pushing me to Quickbooks so it's a bit up in the air now. But thanks for taking the time to respond.
I am sorry but while I do genuinely appreciate the info about requiring a UK presence, which is understandable, and is helpful in understanding the decision that has been made, I do not accept that it is not possible to find a minimal UK subsidiary solution, or to perhaps partner with someone in the UK, to maintain the correct UK presence needed. I am extremely bitter about this - having been a huge ambassador for Wave for a decade. It is a massive kick in the teeth - particularly after recommending countless people in the UK and US to use Wave, and I have invested everything for my business into it. Uploading multiple bank statements is not a viable solution. Migrating one third of my US/UK/Canada business to a different provider is not a solution. This is simply our worst nightmare realized.
Your comments regarding the "substantial additional commitment" required to fulfil the regulatory criteria for Open Banking simply don't hold water - the costs of creating and maintaining a functioning UK/EU based subsidiary would be relatively nominal if the will were there, and this lack of will does amount to (despite your refutation to the contrary) a withdrawal from this market when viewed from the perspective of your UK/EU based users. Please treat your UK/EU customers the same or limit the pretence they are of equal value to you - anything else smacks of trying to have your cake and eat it (being transparently inequitable is still being inequitable).
On a practical note, some research this morning led me to Tiller (https://www.tillerhq.com) which claim to offer an (paid) automatic bank feed connector to Google sheets. Given that Wave offer Google sheets integration for feed imports, might this represent a stopgap solution which avoids the dreaded CSV scenario?
It also begs the question how a much smaller US based company can fufil this service when Wave choose not to. (They use Yodlee incidentally).
Thanks for your comments, and for sharing your research into ways that Wave customers in the UK can streamline data import without direct bank connections.
I've just tried hooking up TillerHQ to my own bank account and downloaded transactions into a Google Sheet. So long as I change a couple of headings in the downloaded spreadsheet, I can then upload successfully straight into Wave using Wave Connect. (The headings that Wave Connect looks for are 'Transaction Date', 'Description', and 'Amount'.)
The only possible issue I can see is that I'm not sure if TillerHQ will be remaining in the UK market after the launch of Open Banking. This page in their Help Center states that as a US company they cannot be regulated by the FCA in the UK, and links to a list of registered providers in the UK. This suggests to me that they will not remain a workable solution going forward, but you would need to confirm this with them directly.
The broad idea that you might work with a UK-based company to extract your data and - under your own control - upload it into Wave is a good one. Perhaps as this regulation progresses we may see a company like Tiller emerge in the UK to enable this kind of flexibility for customers who want to use data from their UK financial institutions with non-UK financial tools.
Thanks very much for posting this, pandle.com looks good.
@murrayzz1 said:
TO EVERYONE : Pandle looks like a fine alternative, includes bank feeds, is already MTD compliant, and is only a fiver a month. www.pandle.com. Best of all, they CAN be bothered to support EU customers.
Personally, I would have preferred Wave to start charging and use the revenue to get compliant, but they clearly don't give a toss about us.
@Katie_Wave Real shame that Wave will no longer work fully for people like me in the UK. Its been a great product. What happens to my data when I move to a new service? Will it always be there for me to access? Thanks, Matthew
Damn, I only signed up yesterday. I will be moving over to Pandle. I'm happy to pay their £5 a month +VAT to have a provider that actually provides bank feeds from September 2019 in the UK!
The only things changing about your Wave account when Open Banking comes into force is that Wave will be removing support for our automatic bank feed feature in the UK and EU since our offering will no longer be compliant.
All of your data will remain as-is, including any bank data that was imported previously, and we'll continue to offer our accounting and invoicing platforms for free. Unless you choose to close your Wave account, your data will remain in your account.
Depending on the volume of transactions that you need to import each month, you may find that using Wave Connect is a viable alternative to a connected account - you can read more about that here.
Non of the alternatives are as good as Wave. Pandle doesn't have most of the wave functionality. Strongly advise Wave to made an effort and try to do what they can to support Open Banking even if they introduce a fee.
Hi, I'm four days into a 14-day trial of Zoho Books.
I've inputed maybe 25% of my data and it took me all day Saturday and Sunday. From 9am to 9pm. It's hard going. I was hoping to swap over at the month end but it's going to take slightly longer.
They charge £14.20 a month or £144 a year (including VAT). However the bank feeds are working fine (only five allowed on the trial but unlimited thereafter) and they have tags.
Sad to be leaving Wave and like the others, I would have been prepared to pay a reasonable fee for the bank feeds.
For those evaluating ways of remaining with Wave but using others ways to integrate feeds I think I can rule out using Tillerhq.com (as per my earlier post and @PaulC 's subsequent testing). Tiller support have responded to my requests for clarification on the Open Banking issue - see below which I take to mean this is either not on their radar at all or is of insufficient priority to address. Shame - this would have allowed so many of us to continue using Wave.
Tiller HQ support response:
"We are eager to support UK and EU customers, but we have not yet finalized our plans around UK & EU Open Banking regulations. Thanks for the vote of support for this work. We've passed this on to the product team."
Wave: Please create a paid version that will support this feature. Match the price of pandle and you'll be able to afford to open a UK office with full time staff and also make the necessary software developments. Dont loose your uk and eu customers... we are important and willing to pay!
@Mcarey@relaxglasgow Thanks for sharing the importance the bank connection feature has for you! To quote the FAQ on Open Banking, "Directives like Open Banking will be advocated and promoted into Canada and the United States in the next few years. Wave believes in these types of initiatives, so when it is timely to develop these features for the UK & EU, we will. As we decide on our international revenue strategy in the future, the United Kingdom and European Union are a critical component of that vision." In other words, we haven't forgotten about you!
very disappointed with this especially as I only joined WAVE about 3 weeks ago and it has taken this time to get my head around it and now I have to move elsewhere - It would of been useful if WAVE would of advised this to potential new people so they could make an informed decision before joining
Have you looked at Pandle as an option? It's not free but at £5+VAT per month it won't break the bank. They're supporting bank integrations for UK & EU banks and are also MTD for VAT compliant.
All your Wave data can be exported by use of Wave Connect in Google Sheets, or by csv download. This can then be imported to Pandle.
If you don't really want to have the hassle of learning new software and would rather stay with Wave then you'll have to import your bank transactions by use of csv files but using wave connect to put the data into the right format for importation.
A real shame. I have liked using Wave and have been a real advocate. It would've been so simple and worthwhile to have a paid option, even a UK/EU paid option with bank reconciliation and dedicated EU support. In time it will be realised that it was a short sighted mistake not retain a global approach and will of course ultimately be detrimental to the Northern America you hoped to support. By then it'll be too late - your European supporters will have new found loyalty with Xero (my choice) or Quick Books. It was nice whilst it lasted though - so thanks for that. Shame on the individual decision makers.
Hey @alek1986, these EU updates won't affect Switzerland Wave and bank accounts. However, you won't be able to connect an EU/EEA bank account to Wave no matter what location the Wave account is.
Open banking has a stay of execution until March now ... can the deadline be extended - from Xero “You may have heard that the UK regulator, the FCA, has provided a six month adjustment period, which means most UK banks can continue to allow customers to use Yodlee feeds from 14 September 2019 to 14 March 2020. ”
Thanks for your comment. We do understand your desire to continue using automated bank feeds with Wave, but unfortunately the FCA change is not what it seems.
“Open Banking” refers to a group of regulations that derive from the second EU Payment Services Directive (“PSD2”), and that are implemented independently by each member state. The two most important components of this regulation are:
EU banks must provide the ability for Account Information Service Providers (AISPs) such as Wave, and other Third Party Providers (TPPs), to access data on behalf of customers using defined APIs and “Secure Customer Authentication” measures (SCA), and
AISPs and other TPPs must be registered and regulated in at least one member state.
The original deadline was September 14th, 2019. However, banks in many EU countries are behind on their implementation of new APIs. Therefore, on a country-by-country basis, regulators have been adjusting deadlines and granting exceptions.
In the UK, the Financial Conduct Authority (FCA) has introduced an ‘Adjustment Period’ of 6 months during which banks that have failed to meet the deadline can allow registered AISPs to continue to connect without Secure Customer Authentication (SCA). This is the change that the Xero article you refer to is talking about.
The ‘Adjustment Period’ announced by the FCA relates only to banks and the requirement for Secure Customer Authentication. There is no change to the 14 September deadline for all AISPs that access bank data on behalf of customers to be regulated under PSD2 arrangements, so the deadline for Wave does not change given we are not a registered Account Information Service Provider (AISP) in the EU or UK.
We understand everyone’s disappointment that this regulatory change that was designed to increase ease of access to your bank data has - in Wave’s case - driven us in the other direction, to remove direct bank connections. You are still free to download bank data and upload it directly into Wave under your own control, however, so please explore our bank uploads and/or Wave Connect Google Sheets integration.
Hi guys at Wave. Whoever made this decision needs to be fired. Its a horrible scenario for 1000s of business in UK and Europe.
The latest on the Open Banking legislation is that the rules have been relaxed for 6 months while the banks and third party integration solutions adjust. It was very premature of you to drop the support completely. It seems there is zero concern for your customers.
Hi AlexL. Many thanks for the reply. I read that. Can you kindly respond to point about yodlee service. Were you not using them as the middleman? If so then why did it not work out?
Just picking up your specific point regarding Yodlee: yes, we did work with Yodlee to connect bank data in the UK and Europe. This does not impact whether we can or cannot continue to provide a bank integration service, however.
The critical constraint is that for Wave to continue offering bank integrations in the UK and EU, we would need to establish a separate entity with physical presence, local directors, and regulatory registration and oversight in those markets (possibly x2, depending on how Brexit plays out). This is not something that is right for Wave at this time.
Yodlee require all their customers who consume UK/EU bank data to be registered and regulated in the UK/EU to consume that data, so it is the regulatory constraint - not technology - that is driving this.
I spoke in more depth on this in my comment of June 20th. Note also - as explained in my comment of September 13th above - that the 'adjustment period' of 6 months in the UK is for the benefit of banks, and does not modify the regulatory requirements of 3rd party information service providers (i.e. Wave), effective September 14th.
We share your disappointment that a regulatory change intended to open up your access to your bank data has - in the case of Wave - taken things in the opposite direction. Please note you are still free to export data from your bank and import into Wave to streamline your bookkeeping.
Comments
@wavematt @murrayzz1 @smashing @rd3 @Philip Osborne @JasonConway @Davenir
Thanks for sharing your thoughts here, and we do understand everyone's disappointment that Wave will be removing automated bank feeds in the UK and EU.
I'd like to clarify and emphasize one point, however: as @JustinA stated above:
"To become compliant, Wave would have to open a physical location in the EU with full time employees, as well as build out brand new technology."
Wave is a Canadian business, with customers all over the world. To comply with the new UK and EU Open Banking regulations, we would have to create a UK subsidiary, with employees and directors in the UK (and potentially a second subsidiary in the EU, depending upon how Brexit concludes). This is not a step that is right for Wave at this time.
To be clear, Wave strongly supports the goal of opening up digital banking - we believe you should be entitled to use your banking data as you choose. We are not "withdrawing from the UK market" in response to Open Banking; we simply - at this time - are not ready to make the substantial additional commitment to enter the UK market with a local subsidiary that would be required to participate in UK/EU Open Banking.
Wave continues to serve customers worldwide. We value and appreciate all our customers in the UK and EU, and for this reason we are endeavouring to be as transparent as possible about our intentions in these markets.
If you haven't already, I'd encourage you to check out how to upload bank statements in Wave or with Wave Connect as a way to continue capturing your transactions data into Wave. Once you've done it a couple of times, it's really a very quick process!
Thanks for reading, Paul
Thanks for your explanation and I will have a go to see what's involved in the Statements upload, but its all extra time taken. My accountant is pushing me to Quickbooks so it's a bit up in the air now. But thanks for taking the time to respond.
I am sorry but while I do genuinely appreciate the info about requiring a UK presence, which is understandable, and is helpful in understanding the decision that has been made, I do not accept that it is not possible to find a minimal UK subsidiary solution, or to perhaps partner with someone in the UK, to maintain the correct UK presence needed. I am extremely bitter about this - having been a huge ambassador for Wave for a decade. It is a massive kick in the teeth - particularly after recommending countless people in the UK and US to use Wave, and I have invested everything for my business into it. Uploading multiple bank statements is not a viable solution. Migrating one third of my US/UK/Canada business to a different provider is not a solution. This is simply our worst nightmare realized.
@wavematt @murrayzz1 @smashing @rd3 @Philip Osborne @JasonConway
Thanks for your reply @PaulC and indeed for replying at all.
Your comments regarding the "substantial additional commitment" required to fulfil the regulatory criteria for Open Banking simply don't hold water - the costs of creating and maintaining a functioning UK/EU based subsidiary would be relatively nominal if the will were there, and this lack of will does amount to (despite your refutation to the contrary) a withdrawal from this market when viewed from the perspective of your UK/EU based users. Please treat your UK/EU customers the same or limit the pretence they are of equal value to you - anything else smacks of trying to have your cake and eat it (being transparently inequitable is still being inequitable).
On a practical note, some research this morning led me to Tiller (https://www.tillerhq.com) which claim to offer an (paid) automatic bank feed connector to Google sheets. Given that Wave offer Google sheets integration for feed imports, might this represent a stopgap solution which avoids the dreaded CSV scenario?
It also begs the question how a much smaller US based company can fufil this service when Wave choose not to. (They use Yodlee incidentally).
Hi @Davenir,
Thanks for your comments, and for sharing your research into ways that Wave customers in the UK can streamline data import without direct bank connections.
I've just tried hooking up TillerHQ to my own bank account and downloaded transactions into a Google Sheet. So long as I change a couple of headings in the downloaded spreadsheet, I can then upload successfully straight into Wave using Wave Connect. (The headings that Wave Connect looks for are 'Transaction Date', 'Description', and 'Amount'.)
The only possible issue I can see is that I'm not sure if TillerHQ will be remaining in the UK market after the launch of Open Banking. This page in their Help Center states that as a US company they cannot be regulated by the FCA in the UK, and links to a list of registered providers in the UK. This suggests to me that they will not remain a workable solution going forward, but you would need to confirm this with them directly.
The broad idea that you might work with a UK-based company to extract your data and - under your own control - upload it into Wave is a good one. Perhaps as this regulation progresses we may see a company like Tiller emerge in the UK to enable this kind of flexibility for customers who want to use data from their UK financial institutions with non-UK financial tools.
Thanks, Paul
Thanks again @PaulC . I will try to get clarification from Tiller on this and report back.
Thanks very much for posting this, pandle.com looks good.
@Katie_Wave Real shame that Wave will no longer work fully for people like me in the UK. Its been a great product. What happens to my data when I move to a new service? Will it always be there for me to access? Thanks, Matthew
Damn, I only signed up yesterday. I will be moving over to Pandle. I'm happy to pay their £5 a month +VAT to have a provider that actually provides bank feeds from September 2019 in the UK!
Hey @MAP
The only things changing about your Wave account when Open Banking comes into force is that Wave will be removing support for our automatic bank feed feature in the UK and EU since our offering will no longer be compliant.
All of your data will remain as-is, including any bank data that was imported previously, and we'll continue to offer our accounting and invoicing platforms for free. Unless you choose to close your Wave account, your data will remain in your account.
Depending on the volume of transactions that you need to import each month, you may find that using Wave Connect is a viable alternative to a connected account - you can read more about that here.
I have no doubt that the new owners of Wave (H&R Block) have decided to drop business areas that don't generate much profit.
The UK must be one of those areas.
Non of the alternatives are as good as Wave. Pandle doesn't have most of the wave functionality. Strongly advise Wave to made an effort and try to do what they can to support Open Banking even if they introduce a fee.
Hi, I'm four days into a 14-day trial of Zoho Books.
I've inputed maybe 25% of my data and it took me all day Saturday and Sunday. From 9am to 9pm. It's hard going. I was hoping to swap over at the month end but it's going to take slightly longer.
They charge £14.20 a month or £144 a year (including VAT). However the bank feeds are working fine (only five allowed on the trial but unlimited thereafter) and they have tags.
Sad to be leaving Wave and like the others, I would have been prepared to pay a reasonable fee for the bank feeds.
Philip
For those evaluating ways of remaining with Wave but using others ways to integrate feeds I think I can rule out using Tillerhq.com (as per my earlier post and @PaulC 's subsequent testing). Tiller support have responded to my requests for clarification on the Open Banking issue - see below which I take to mean this is either not on their radar at all or is of insufficient priority to address. Shame - this would have allowed so many of us to continue using Wave.
Tiller HQ support response:
"We are eager to support UK and EU customers, but we have not yet finalized our plans around UK & EU Open Banking regulations. Thanks for the vote of support for this work. We've passed this on to the product team."
Wave: Please create a paid version that will support this feature. Match the price of pandle and you'll be able to afford to open a UK office with full time staff and also make the necessary software developments. Dont loose your uk and eu customers... we are important and willing to pay!
Totally unable to find good replacement. As above WAVE: Create a paid version that will support this feature. Willing to pay even from today!
@Mcarey @relaxglasgow Thanks for sharing the importance the bank connection feature has for you! To quote the FAQ on Open Banking, "Directives like Open Banking will be advocated and promoted into Canada and the United States in the next few years. Wave believes in these types of initiatives, so when it is timely to develop these features for the UK & EU, we will. As we decide on our international revenue strategy in the future, the United Kingdom and European Union are a critical component of that vision." In other words, we haven't forgotten about you!
Here's a link to the FAQ for more context on this: https://www.waveapps.com/open-banking-uk
very disappointed with this especially as I only joined WAVE about 3 weeks ago and it has taken this time to get my head around it and now I have to move elsewhere - It would of been useful if WAVE would of advised this to potential new people so they could make an informed decision before joining
All your Wave data can be exported by use of Wave Connect in Google Sheets, or by csv download. This can then be imported to Pandle.
If you don't really want to have the hassle of learning new software and would rather stay with Wave then you'll have to import your bank transactions by use of csv files but using wave connect to put the data into the right format for importation.
A real shame. I have liked using Wave and have been a real advocate. It would've been so simple and worthwhile to have a paid option, even a UK/EU paid option with bank reconciliation and dedicated EU support. In time it will be realised that it was a short sighted mistake not retain a global approach and will of course ultimately be detrimental to the Northern America you hoped to support. By then it'll be too late - your European supporters will have new found loyalty with Xero (my choice) or Quick Books. It was nice whilst it lasted though - so thanks for that. Shame on the individual decision makers.
wow! This is a great disappointment to me. I am here and hoping for the best of waveaccounting.
lovelogo.org
How does this affect to Switzerland accounts?
Hey @alek1986, these EU updates won't affect Switzerland Wave and bank accounts. However, you won't be able to connect an EU/EEA bank account to Wave no matter what location the Wave account is.
Hi @Nickkp,
Thanks for your comment. We do understand your desire to continue using automated bank feeds with Wave, but unfortunately the FCA change is not what it seems.
“Open Banking” refers to a group of regulations that derive from the second EU Payment Services Directive (“PSD2”), and that are implemented independently by each member state. The two most important components of this regulation are:
The original deadline was September 14th, 2019. However, banks in many EU countries are behind on their implementation of new APIs. Therefore, on a country-by-country basis, regulators have been adjusting deadlines and granting exceptions.
In the UK, the Financial Conduct Authority (FCA) has introduced an ‘Adjustment Period’ of 6 months during which banks that have failed to meet the deadline can allow registered AISPs to continue to connect without Secure Customer Authentication (SCA). This is the change that the Xero article you refer to is talking about.
The ‘Adjustment Period’ announced by the FCA relates only to banks and the requirement for Secure Customer Authentication. There is no change to the 14 September deadline for all AISPs that access bank data on behalf of customers to be regulated under PSD2 arrangements, so the deadline for Wave does not change given we are not a registered Account Information Service Provider (AISP) in the EU or UK.
We understand everyone’s disappointment that this regulatory change that was designed to increase ease of access to your bank data has - in Wave’s case - driven us in the other direction, to remove direct bank connections. You are still free to download bank data and upload it directly into Wave under your own control, however, so please explore our bank uploads and/or Wave Connect Google Sheets integration.
We appreciate your understanding. Paul.
Bit of a kick in the *alls to start sending email out saying
"Important Message: there's an issue with your connection to Santander Business Banking (UK)"
Hi guys at Wave. Whoever made this decision needs to be fired. Its a horrible scenario for 1000s of business in UK and Europe.
The latest on the Open Banking legislation is that the rules have been relaxed for 6 months while the banks and third party integration solutions adjust. It was very premature of you to drop the support completely. It seems there is zero concern for your customers.
Were you using yodlee service for bank connections? If so they say they are gonna be supporting the new method so the transition should be quite easy.
It is unbelievable that someone at high position can press a destruct button without any justification or responsibility to customers.
Hi @rehanahmad . Feel free to read over the post that Paul has posted above yours as it addresses all of the issues brought up in your post.
Hi AlexL. Many thanks for the reply. I read that. Can you kindly respond to point about yodlee service. Were you not using them as the middleman? If so then why did it not work out?
Hi @rehanahmad,
Just picking up your specific point regarding Yodlee: yes, we did work with Yodlee to connect bank data in the UK and Europe. This does not impact whether we can or cannot continue to provide a bank integration service, however.
The critical constraint is that for Wave to continue offering bank integrations in the UK and EU, we would need to establish a separate entity with physical presence, local directors, and regulatory registration and oversight in those markets (possibly x2, depending on how Brexit plays out). This is not something that is right for Wave at this time.
Yodlee require all their customers who consume UK/EU bank data to be registered and regulated in the UK/EU to consume that data, so it is the regulatory constraint - not technology - that is driving this.
I spoke in more depth on this in my comment of June 20th. Note also - as explained in my comment of September 13th above - that the 'adjustment period' of 6 months in the UK is for the benefit of banks, and does not modify the regulatory requirements of 3rd party information service providers (i.e. Wave), effective September 14th.
We share your disappointment that a regulatory change intended to open up your access to your bank data has - in the case of Wave - taken things in the opposite direction. Please note you are still free to export data from your bank and import into Wave to streamline your bookkeeping.